Explicit Direct Access with Protectors and Exiles - Fran Booth

Today on IFS Talks, we're very excited to speak with Fran Booth. Fran Booth is a social worker and certified IFS therapist, consultant and trainer. She's been a clinician for more than 40 years. Her practice specializes in trauma, anxiety, depression, grief, cancer, and other medical concerns, binge eating and attachment injuries. Fran graduated from Cornell University and Simmons School for Social Work. She's been immersed in IFS since 2005. And Fran served as a therapist in a seminar research study on IFS and rheumatoid arthritis. Recently, she's penned a chapter titled IFS Consultation, fostering the Self-lead Therapist for an upcoming book on IFS and Supervision. She has offered over 75 workshops for a variety of training organizations, spreading the word on parts work and IFS to the global community. Recently, she's been promoted to Co-lead trainer for the IFS Institute.

Tisha Shull: Welcome Fran, and thank you so much for speaking with us today.

Fran Booth: I'm so glad to be with both of you, Aníbal and Tisha. Thank you for inviting me.

Aníbal Henriques: Welcome Fran. Thanks much for joining us and many congratulations on your recent promotion to Co-lead trainer.

Fran: Thank you.

Aníbal: So, hearing your bio, Fran, what parts come up for you today?

Fran: Well, it's a lot to take in, to be honest. I'm very excited about what's happening right now. Having a chapter come out, being promoted to Co-lead. These are big new steps and platforms for me. So, there are parts that are just genuinely excited. There are parts that feel a little, “wow, I did that?” Like, I can sense a young one, sort of feeling a young energy in that one, “wow, really?” Yeah. But also, I want to say proud. And of course, I also want to say that's been a journey to give myself permission to do that because I had a lot of messages growing up about sort of not... It wasn't okay to be proud almost. There were parts that had confusion about that. So yeah, I feel proud about what's come together in this moment.

Tisha: Would you share a little bit about what your journey has been like through becoming a social worker and discovering IFS.

Fran: Oh yes. I'd be delighted to, but I want to circle back, if I might, to add a little bit more to the bio, because I did want to name or sort of talk about kind of evolution in bios, that's happening in the larger IFS community. And one of the things that I've been doing more regularly now is adding to sort of that more formal academic bio, the following, which is that I'm cisgender heterosexual woman of Irish Catholic, and then German descent, largely influenced by the Irish Catholic side, which my mom's both parents were immigrants. So, my mom was first generation, I was secondary generation. And both parents had significant trauma histories that were really unprocessed in their lifetime. And, you know, I now I'm introducing myself that way in trainings. And it is part of a larger shift, I think, in the field in general, to be more open, self-disclosing, more acknowledging of my own privilege, where it shows up, more acknowledging explicitly that we are shaped by our cultural influences in our family of origin and that may color our work in the office and that we're holding awareness of that. And there is an implicit invitation, if it's getting in the way in any way, let me know. So, the whole bio thing, and I know that you'll often say, what parts do you notice, and it has been a journey internally to also name all of those parts of me, to name, you know, that there's a trauma history in my family. It bumps right up against messages, this now ties into your question, Tisha, about a lot of my own journey. You know, the Irish Catholic influence for messages around “don't air your dirty laundry” was the expression, right? “Don't tell the family secrets.” And so, even just naming trauma in the family would have challenged my parents’ sort of way of being, some of their own parts. So, I had to do some internal work just to get comfortable and clear to even to add those pieces to my bio, which I do embrace now as part of who I am.

Aníbal: Very welcome.

Tisha: I really appreciate that, Fran, because it acknowledges that we carry so much legacy with us, especially, you know, as you enter those trainings and those teaching experiences that you have. Yeah. So, thank you for sharing that. And I'm glad that that's being included. Everyone can access their own history by you naming what you bring forward in your bio.

Fran: That's the hope and the wish that it's an invitation. And it reminds me of the other pieces, just acknowledging that I'm speaking to you today, on the land that was originally Narragansett and some other native indigenous people, I'm here in Rhode Island.

Aníbal: Yeah. Well, and when and how did you, Fran, became involved or came across with the IFS Model?

Fran: Oh, that's always a fun story and a great question. And, you know, lots of people come alive when you ask that question because like many people, when it finally was there, there was like this big yes inside of me, but of course that was... the preamble is important. So, I was very psychodynamically trained here in the greater Boston area, went to school here and I was immersed in really, I want to say sort of a rich training and ongoing clinical supervision for years as I was in my own solo private practice in the eighties. But there was like, like every tradition, there were heirlooms and burdens, right? So, the heirlooms were, you know, how to listen. And that meant how to listen to what was being said and to what was not being said, what was not available, but was present, but also how to pay attention to the moment-to-moment unfolding. And, you know, but the downside, those are some of the heirlooms, but the downside was there could be that kind of hierarchical sense or a sense of judgment and a pathologizing. And what I love about IFS is that we've really sort of let that go. But during that whole journey and living as a more psychodynamically influenced clinician, I was always interested in learning and exposing to new things. So, I was involved, in the eighties, I was running groups for folks living with AIDS. Later, in the late eighties, I was involved with Joan Borysenko at the original sort of mind-body clinic. Joan Borysenko wrote the book that came out in 87, Minding the body mending the mind. Yeah. And it was really the precursor to the ACE study. I mean, it was a seminal research. Herbert Benson was on the staff of the Harvard medical school and looking at, oh, isn't this interesting, these cardiac patients, if you actually help them release what he then coined the term relaxation response, they actually had better outcomes, they lived longer. So, you know, the interface of the mind and the body really exploded there. And then, of course now the ACE study has that large longitudinal study looking at the role and the interface between trauma in childhood and the onset of medical disease over the course of your life. So, I was fortunate enough to be the staff assistant to their groups and, you know, was working with Joan Borysenko and running there like six, eight-week groups in downtown Boston. So that was, you know, I was already leaving in that moment... It was like in the very beginning of that, it was sort of like, do I tell anybody that I'm leaving this very psychodynamic approach, very cognitive approach and I'm actually interested in all of this other stuff. And there was this feeling like, it was kind of a secret in the beginning and of course that's all changed. But so, I was doing that and I was also, in the nineties, began exploring. I did an immersion training in something that was called at that time wave work. It no longer exists. And it was a mindfulness focused, body focused practice. And it was a three-year training. I was going out to the center, which is a large holistic training center in Western Mass. And immersing in this protocol, which now with IFS, I understand it was this beautiful way of bringing a mindfulness body focused practice. So, you would lie fully cloths on a massage table and just presence the body, just bring compassion and attention and awareness to the body. And it had a minimal, we were minimizing cognitive processing. It would then, naturally we would say in IFS, it would naturally unblend storytellers or parts that thought they knew what was happening. Sort of knew what this was about, you know, parts that were kind of going ahead of things to explain. Thinking parts that figure things, need to figure things out and be in control. All of those parts that my system was heavily dominated by and had been both trained to also use those parts, right. The analyzing, thinking, figuring it out, like that was, you know, figure it out and try to have the best insight, right. And just drop into the body, presence what's ever happening in the body. And if you do that, there's a sort of gentle unfolding. Your attention will just go to what needs attention. And in the beginning it might just be a tight muscle and your body will soften and then you go somewhere else and the body will soften, but ultimately then you're going to end up presencing body held trauma, which we would know, the woman who did this training, her name was Daya Schottky, she had trained a lot with Peter Levine. So, a lot of that work where, you know, stored energies are needing the space, just wanting to release. And if you create the space, that energy is going to move. And it was also like, similar to IFS, it was a coach model. IE, you're coaching someone as they're working with their system. So, that sense of being whispering in their ear as they are in their own process was very parallel. And essentially, you're working with parts and you're working in finding the path towards wisdom. And then, you would drop into this very powerful embodied state of Self-energy, which would feel like this, you know, vibrations or just aliveness. And so, I was blown away. My cognitive parts were blown away by this experience and didn't really have language for it. Just knew I loved it. Right. And I loved it to experience it and I love facilitating it. But then, that was sort of the late, you know, early two thousands and was sort of like around that time, I actually joined the staff of a cancer center, which was a complimentary care cancer center. We had massage and acupuncture and I was running meditation circles and workshops and running groups with people living with cancer. And I got to do this practice because we had massage tables there and I could bring this practice there. So, it was bringing this practice there, but I wasn't bringing it into my psychotherapy practice. And I was like, how am I going to do this? And then one day, it was in 2004. One of my consultees came to me and handed me Dick’s Psychotherapy Networker article, The Larger Self. And she says to me, this seems like you, and like, oh yeah, who is, what is this, the largest Self? And, you know, I immediately, figured it out, got on the online, who is this guy? And where is he and how do I, how do I go to a training? And the next thing you know, I'm at a one-day and the next thing I know I'm on the Cape. And the next thing I know, I'm in a level one. And I feel that IFS really does... It's this comprehensive paradigm. So, that so much of what I learned and studied and was practicing can fit under this large umbrella and be held, and that you can bring this understanding of listening, “oh, is that a part, is that a protector? Is that an exile? Oh, how might Self show up?” Even if it's in the body, even if it's subtle, just noticing this simple, but profound frame of parts, protectors, and exiles and Self-energy and being able to see it, however it shows up.

Tisha: Was there something in you or in your life experience that opened you up more or predisposed you to working with the body, to doing that wave work training at Kripalu?

Fran: You know, probably the most honest answer to that is my own seeking, my own wanting, my own personal growth needs, wanting to find some other ways to heal and exploring, you know, I was doing traditional talk therapy, but also then exploring this other, you know, looking to explore other ways to heal and came into this experience and then delve into that for both personal healing and then as well as trying to offer it. So yes, you know, I spoke to it. It's really knowing, I've had such strong cognitive managers and what happened when we... I didn't know that's what... we were relaxing them or just dropping out of them. Or finding a way to drop out of them. But now I know that's what it was. And I do have parts that want to say if I hadn't done that, you know, I think I would have found IFS still harder to believe or trust because those cognitive parts were so, are so strong.

Aníbal: Yeah. Makes sense. Fran, we understood you have currently different areas of clinical interest, like Direct Access with tough protectors, Direct Access with exiles. Also, a continued interest in bringing the body into the work, the importance of attunement, rupture and repair and also the role of the therapist. Where should we start today? Should we dive into Direct Access today?

Fran: I mean, that's a great place to start. You know, I've been assisting at the trauma training, both with, initially it was with both Frank and Dick, and then now with Frank for many years. And that's a big focus in that training, getting comfortable doing Direct Access and the training focuses on it with tough protectors because that is where you're starting when you're sitting with someone with a lot of trauma history. You're going to be meeting those really tough protectors. So, we do a lot of emphasizing of it. I'll say a couple of things about that, but then I really want to say a few more things about also working with the exiles, because one of the things I want to say that doesn't always get explicitly said in the trauma training, which is when we say you got to work with those tough protectors, what we really mean is like multiple sessions, maybe many times in Explicit Direct Access. Like, it's not a one-shot deal with many of those protectors. And sometimes I think the trainings can... people can walk away thinking it's supposed to be fast or quick and then “what am I doing wrong?” So, I like to say that because you're not doing anything wrong and these protectors will really, really need a lot of attention and Explicit Direct Access, meaning the therapist drops into totally appreciating them and believes it. It has to be authentic, like really wanting to understand why they do what they do and understanding that they may not want to shift and giving them the control. Okay, if you don't want to shift, I totally get it and let's keep talking so that you're staying in the relationship because the relationship starts to matter. Protectors feel the Self-energy, you know, they feel the sense that you care and respect them. And then that's going to be what gives them a little bit of a, “alright, I'll give it a shot, I'll just relax a little bit.” So, I think what I've watched and you know what you do with the training, but then you're also doing consultation and you're doing your own therapy work and you're watching what happens. So, what, you know, you've, you've set up an internal Self-to-Part connection. The client is working with maybe their tough protectors, but of course, what happens in the office is that all of a sudden that's changed and that part is now fully blended and that's when you want to be able to just comfortably just step in, oh, that's just what happened. Oh, that protector’s fully here. Let me just jump right now as the clinician, I've got my IFS hat on, let me just jump into Direct Access with this protector. But of course, the same thing happens with the exiles, right? You're doing, you might be either facilitating an internal piece of work and the client is with their either protector or maybe even with their exile, but all of a sudden, the exile, what happens in the next moment in the office, I just want to sit in your lap. Right. So, what's just happened. So that exile’s just got blended and it just said, I just want to sit in your lap, and what's the next move? Oh, you're here. The little one's here. Sounds like she or he is here fully, or they is here fully. Well, you’re welcome. I want you to know you're welcome. Of course, you want to sit in my lap. That makes so much sense. Tell me more about why you want to sit in my lap. So, in that moment, you just comfortably easily move into Direct Access with the exile. So, we want to do what we do with protect. We want to validate. So, use, of course, you're here. Of course, you want to sit in my lap, tell me more. Now, the therapist has got to work with their parts. Like a ton has to... to be able to do that fluidly, comfortably and staying in Self, IE, my parts aren't getting activated. Can I say to that little one, genuinely of course you want to sit on my lap, tell me more and not, and know that I'm not fostering dependence in a way that's unhealthy, which would have been like, you know, that lens, you've got to know what you're doing, but because what you're doing is validating the longing for that. So, you're going to try to have the parts say, I want that, that's what I needed. You're going to, because that's what they needed back then. And you're going to be able to validate, you did need that back then. Of course, you needed more of that back then. And of course, it makes you feel like you need it right now. I really get that. So, you can be addressing the longing underneath and the unmet need underneath without shaming or distancing. And then at some point we're working on this. We're gonna help you with that. Would you be willing to pull your energy in and off and let Tisha be with you again or Aníbal be with you again so that they can let you know how important that wish or that need is inside of you. Right? So, you're gonna, you know, move to somewhat quickly sort of return to the internal Self-part connection, but you're going to meet the moment fully with embodied Self-energy, understanding the moment, what's happening here.

Tisha: So, it sounds like there's a really attuned tracking when you're working with Direct Access with the challenging protectors. The exile comes through and you are you're there with the exile as you would be with your own exile, from Self-energy. But then there is a softness in transitioning the Self-to-exile relationship back to the client.

Fran: Yeah. The model’s still right, you know. The ultimate healing is that internal connection with those little ones. And it's the moment to moment shifting that can feel unexpected, that can throw people off, what just happened. And that's just what happened, that little exile broke through and said, I want to sit in your lap. And now you want to just like help facilitate the return to the internal Self-to-exile connection, but to do it in a way that's honoring and welcoming of that moment, rather than getting, you know, managerial, I guess about it.

Tisha: Hmm. Does Direct Access with exiles, does it ever get tricky in a way that might be helpful for listeners to be aware of?

Fran: I mean, I think that you were speaking to what could be tricky, like to hold the awareness that you want to be naming that the energy of wanting to be held is actually from the injury of not being held enough. And so, you're not validating that they... and you're not saying sit in my lap. You're not saying, sit on my lap. You're saying, I understand inside the wanting to be held and that you actually did need more of that when you were little. So, it is important to name the root. I would say where the root injury is. And the system just receives that because that is sort of one of those truths that we know like that it's that injury that's showing up in this way right now. So, we want to name that injury. You did need more holding back then. Of course, that's what you're feeling. You needed more, and you did need more. Because the exile is lost in the history, lost in the past and it's activated. I need more holding right now. That's what I need. Right. So, yeah. So, it's important to understand what's happening. So, there is a clinical frame, but once we understand that and we get that and we've relaxed our parts, I'm not saying it's okay to sit in my lap and I'm not saying sit in my lap. If we were in the office, you know, I'm not saying you can sit in my lap, we're not doing that and I'm not going to do that, but I can totally validate the longing and wishing and wanting that.

Aníbal: Okay. So why in your opinion is Explicit Direct Access usually so scary for many trainees.

Fran: You know, that's a really great question. I've thought some about that. It's probably complex and it is probably there's personal parts for each person. What that might be, what I think that's probably the best answer, but it is a return to how do I use myself? How is the therapist showing up directly? Because what, you know, Dick brought with the IFS model is this internal connection. And there was that and there is some initial relief about, oh, thank goodness. I don't have to have all the insights. I don't have to be... So, you know, figure it all out. I can trust a client system and there's beauty in that, but I think there can be parts in each of us as therapists that might feel, might be more comfortable staying distant. Right. So maybe our own healing around, about really being close, it might touch into what still needs attention in the therapist around, is it okay for me to be needed? Is it okay? What comes up for me to be this intimate or to be this close? What parts of me still may need attention that either want that long for it or, you know, shy away from that? Does that make sense?

Aníbal: Yes. Absolutely. So, it’s about therapist parts, right?

Fran: Yes, I think ultimately.

Aníbal: And, would you say there are major differences in doing Direct Access with tough protectors versus our exiles?

Fran: Maybe just understanding what's driving the behavior. Yes.

Aníbal: And when should we invite the part to an Explicit Direct Access?

Fran: When it shows up. Well, or when the inside work is either not possible, right? So you can't even get in. Now you know you're talking to a protector because you know, you can't... and then when the insight IE the client's internal Self-energy has been working internally, and then all of a sudden it stops, then you're in that moment, something has shifted and there's either a confusion or some kind of a block that has terminated the insight process. And now you're in Direct Access. Oh, what just happened? Something just happened, oh, let me see who's here now. Can I speak to what part just might've shut you off or took you out or said no more. Yeah. Stop that internal process. So, either in the beginning, when you're just setting up clients, you're talking to protectors, are they willing and able to go... a client to set up that internal Self-to-Part connection? Or then when that's been happening for a little while in the process gets stopped, those are two big ones. It's probably more.

Aníbal: Yeah, absolutely.

Tisha: Do you ever find that protectors react or come in after you've been doing Direct Access with exiles and how do you work with that?

Fran: That's interesting. You know, that would be about somebody's internal systems. So, when that little exile inside sort of broke through the protectors, and maybe there's a team of protectors you've been helping your client get to know, there might definitely be one that hates that exile and hates whenever it shows up. Those that in trauma system that would be common to have, parts that hate any vulnerability.

Tisha: And there you've engaged with it and seen it.

Fran: And then now that one might show up and either be yelling inside the client, or, yeah... So, either yelling or maybe might say something out loud to me, but that's, you know, I actually haven't had that happen as much as it sounds. It seems like it might, but typically you're trying to have identified what is the cluster of parts that don't want to allow access and the client would have had maybe some beginning getting to know that kind of a tough protective that would really object to that.

Aníbal: Fran, do you believe that this tool Direct Access is a good tool to work with those parts that play a role in ruptures in the alliance during the work?

Fran: I have to think a little bit more about that, Aníbal. You know, the ruptures, when I'm thinking about rupture or even, you know, I've been trying to find a word that doesn't make it even that big, like misattunements, like part of what I am thinking about is how to normalize and depathologize ruptures and, you know, deshame, because I think that what IFS has brought is that whole, we all have parts, we do our darnedest to get our own parts to soften and relax, so that we can show up with the best amount of Self-energy possible in the office, but we have parts and our parts can show up. So, when I'm thinking about rupture and repair, I'm mostly thinking about, or been thinking about it from that lens. Are my parts interfering in some way in the therapeutic relationship? And then how do I own that? So, what amount of self-disclosure is appropriate? How to do it and the importance of doing it and what I feel like I'm almost now on a little kick around looking for even small moments to build the, or to give the message I want you to be telling me if I say a word, or if I'm seem to be emphasizing something that doesn't feel quite right or does it feel like where the emphasis belongs, like really inviting the client to be sort of correcting me, sort of making the attunement really accurate. Really, sometimes I'll say exquisite attunement. So that, if you keep inviting the client to be letting you know, you know that word wasn't right and you said this and that wasn't quite it... Then you're doing so many things I think are so important, which is making the relationship more collaborative, acknowledging that I have parts and that I might not be hearing it in just the right way. You're wanting out, so to speak, parts in the client that might want to please me, or be tentative about correcting me. That's when I'm thinking about attunement, misattunement repair. How do I, own parts of mine got in the way? Yeah. So, I haven't thought about it so much from the Direct Access lens, more around the relationship and the importance of paying attention to my parts. Are they relaxed? How did they showed up? You know, for example, this is maybe a clearer example. Like, sometimes when you're not having access in a system and the client seems to not be able to build or stay and having their own Self-energy, building a connection with their own parts internally. So, you’re kind of getting stuck, and sometimes it's really because you haven't met all of the major players sometimes. Some big protector parts might still be more hidden. And then when they, you know, so you can ask that question, which is a lovely, is there anybody who's really important that we actually haven't met? And then sometimes when that happens, you know, what I can say... You know what, we didn't listen for you and we didn't invite you and you might've sensed it in me, parts that were maybe pushing or, you know, even other protectors that are really tough and don't want to relax. Like, sometimes just using... You might've sensed in me some parts that were kind of pushing past you too quickly, or didn't really recognize how important you really are. And I want to really acknowledge and own those parts because, and then when I say that, I can feel like even just in this little moment, a tiny bit, but when I'm doing that live in the office, I can feel my whole system actually drop into a genuine, I am really sorry about that. You are important and we missed it and we were rushing past you. So, I'm so glad you're here and I want to be with you. So, in that way I'm using Direct Access, but it's to that part, it's to that traumatized system. It's an apology. Yeah. So, all of those pieces come together in that kind of a moment.

Tisha: I'm just appreciating you and appreciating the nuance of self-awareness and connection with clients. And there's a curiosity in me to understand your psychodynamic training and how that plays into this self-attunement and connection, if at all.

Fran: Well, I appreciate your reflection. Thank you. And I think some pieces of me, one is a high value, which is knowing your own... We have the high value in IFS, knowing one's own system and the worthwhile exploration of attending to knowing one's parts really well. And that is both from the psychodynamic world, as well as the IFS world, that the importance of this piece, my own, what I bring, who I am, my parts and my Self-energy, understanding them, my own capacity to be with them and to soften them, and then being willing, there is a kind of being courageous and showing up and being connected, being willing to be that connected. So, I would say it's both early psychodynamic and also IFS that has allowed me that comfort with then seeing the moment to moment movement and shift and showing up in each new moment. Who's here in me and who's here in the client and what's happening now. Like, is my part talking to this new moment? How do I relax that? And what's happening in the client. We just shifted. And now their exiles here, and now their protectors are here.

Aníbal: Fran, another topic of your clinical interest is the role of the therapist. Do you want to speak for this topic? How do you find the role of therapist relevant?

Fran: I think that's what I'm, you know, what we're addressing that, who I am, how I show up, what are my parts? What's my comfort with my parts and my loving, you know, loving my protectors, loving my exiles so deeply and embodying that. I think is part of what I bring and what I feel passionate about is important as clinicians, that flavors and colors the work with our clients. But it also flavors and colors how quickly we can unblend.

Tisha: You have moved into this new promotion position of Co-lead. How has that been? What's that like to co-lead trainings now?

Fran: Well, my first one will be this fall. In fact, that's all administratively just getting set up. So, I haven't had my first gig as we would say, but I'm excited. And I've done a lot of teaching, you know, one-day seminars on IFS in a wide variety of settings. And so, I feel like all of that has, I've definitely grown in confidence and skill and comfort. I enjoy thinking about how to teach it creatively. So, I actually have a part that sort of, you know, I use video and just video off of YouTube, as well as sessions clips and how can we teach some of these concepts creatively. I enjoy, sort of engage in the Q&A, like, where are you wrestling with something and let's wrestle and figure this out. So, all of that. I enjoy leading the guided meditation. So those skills I've really been doing in a lot of different in the one-day seminars. And I'm looking forward to bringing all of that in the ongoing trainings.

Tisha: And this training you're starting, is it online or are you in person yet?

Fran: Yeah. So, this one will be fully online. All of the ones that they're still going to be scheduling for the end of this calendar year will be online. And then I think in 2022, they're going to start with some hybrid. Some will stay all online. And then I think they're going to have some in-person. So, those new trainings are getting planned right now on the backend administratively, and they're going to be enrolled over the next month. It's exciting.

Aníbal: So, Fran, what's coming for you in the future? You have just spoke for this new journey of yours as a Co-Lead Trainer. And also, recently you have been writing a chapter titled IFS consultation, fostering the Self-led therapist for the coming book on IFS and supervision. It's exciting.

Fran: Yeah, it is. Thank you. Yes. The book is due out next calendar year. There are still, you know, it's after you've finished your chapter, there's still plenty more that has to happen on the backside. So, I think the chapter, let me try to say some of what I've been sharing with you that I feel is important, sort of the importance of understanding our own parts and a lot of consultation often is helping a therapist unblend from their own parts so that they can then show up in the office differently. So, that's some of what I do in consultation. Some of the other consultation things that I'm doing that are really fun right now, or like serving as a... I mean, basically sort of doing short-term consultations where people come with... There's a therapy that's sort of in a crunch place. Paul Russell was a very well-known psychodynamic teacher here in the greater Boston area. He wrote a paper called The Theory of the Crunch. So, when there's a kind of a moment, it's sort of the moment in the therapy and what's going on there, how to understand the crisis in a therapy as an opportunity. And I have had the pleasure and the privilege of being in a few cases where that exploration, where it feels like the therapy might be in a crisis and to then have a chance... because basically what IFS brings to all of that is just, okay, let's unpack this. Okay, it's just basically a bunch of parts that are getting activated both inside the therapist and inside the client and let's see whether we can open it up and maybe this crisis might actually have a resolution towards repair. So, I love that IFS has, you know, gives us that frame so that rather than have a, because often what the crisis is, is the moment, is the opportunity rather than the rupture, which can end a therapy. So, I've got that from my psychodynamic training that seeing a crunch. In fact, I worked for a while in an inpatient psych unit in the early days when actually inpatient psych might've been, there were six weeks days and we would often see a crunch in an ongoing long-term therapy. And the unit had a little specialty around offering consultation to therapies that were in a crunch. So, the idea that we can solve those crises and that's something, you know, there's somethings being reenacted in some way, something's coming alive. If we can just sort out all the parts, it could shift towards growth. So, that's been a fun little something I'm excited about. Yeah. I mean, just, you know, doing more of the teaching and trainings I'm excited about. And, you know, I do feel like some of the things, you know, the opportunity to write a chapter just came to me. I hadn't gone looking for it. So, there might be other opportunities that just come that are, that I can say yes to. So being open to what was unknown, but might still come, is exciting for me as well.

Aníbal: So, Fran, such a journey yours and such a joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for sitting with us and focusing such relevant clinical topics. Thank you for all the sharing and wisdom. It was a joy to be here with you and Tisha, and we hope we can keep meeting and sharing this model, our work and our lives.

Fran: Thank you. Really lovely to be with both of you, thank you for this opportunity. And I really actually do so appreciate what you're also bringing to the larger world in this format. So, thank you to both of you.

Tisha: Thank you, Fran. It's been wonderful to speak with you today.

Fran: As well.

Tisha: Looking forward to more conversations.