IFS as a Metamodel of Therapy with Arthur Mones

Today on IFS Talks we're interviewing and talking to Art Mones. Dr. Mones is a diplomat in clinical psychologist who works with children, teens, adults, couples and families. He's an approved supervisor for the American Association of Marriage and Family Therapy, licensed in New York and Massachusetts and certified in Internal Family Systems therapy.

Dr. Mones is on the faculty of the Adelphi University Derner Institute Postgraduate Training Program in Couples Therapy. Art was coordinator of Marriage and Family Therapy Training in the doctoral program in Clinical Psychology at St. John's University for 18 years. He was also a faculty member of the Long Island Institute for Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy. Prior to that, he served as director of psychological services at Peninsula Counseling Center on Long Island. Art has also maintained a private practice for over three decades.

He has presented workshops in his areas of specializations on a local and national level. In addition, Dr. Mones currently offers monthly professional consultation groups, teaching and supervising colleagues as they explore the essence of healing in psychotherapy. And as I read that bio, I realize we are just touching the tip of the iceberg of what you've accomplished. So, thank you so much for taking the time and being with us today, Art.

Arthur Mones: Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thank you for that.

Aníbal Henriques: Yes, thank you, Art, thank you Tisha for having us. Art, you have been publishing in our field since more than 25 years now, I believe. And we can see since the very beginning of your journey as a writer and even researcher, a concern with couples, families and the children. And you authored articles and titles like Marital Violence, Oppositional Children and their Families, Oppositional behavior in children. And with Dick, you just wrote this article on the functional hypothesis. Also, you have this wonderful 2014 book Transforming Troubled Children, Teens and Their Families. And also, in 2014, you have this wonderful therapeutic boardgame KidsWorld Inside and Out. And more recently, you have this new book coming 2017, The Therapist Guide to Kids World Inside and Out. So, this is huge, it's a huge journey, not only around family systems, but particularly now on Internal Family Systems throughout these two decades or so. How is it for you, Art, to hear this bio? What parts come up to you?

Art: No wonder I'm feeling tired.

[Laughs]

Art: Well, I always, when there's a spotlight on me, I love the opportunity, but there's always this little shy kid that pops in and I take a moment, which I've just done, to internally smile at him and let him know that, you know, we have some good ideas and things that we've learned, so would be good to put those forward. And he calms down and that's...

Aníbal: And how does he react when you stay with your inner child in that so sweet way?

Art: He likes that. He likes it. He likes hearing that. He likes the attention.

Aníbal: I love your journey, Art, in so many ways. You know, it's so important to bring this wonderful model into parents and children and families. And there are not so many doing that work. You know, I don't know why, maybe you have some idea on this, why so many people start working with families and children. Then somehow in their journeys, they give up and they come up into adult work mainly. And you stick with this work with children and parents. That is so, so important. So, my acknowledgement, my respect for your long journey doing this hard work, because I know it can be very hard to work with the families and the spouses and couples. So, I have a deep respect for your long journey around this special group. How do you manage?

Art: [laughs] You know, for me, it's energizing to...You know, my practice has always been quite varied. So, hour to hour, you know, I'll be seeing individual adult, I'll be seeing a couple, I'll be seeing a school aged teen, you know...

Aníbal: It helps.

Art: And the variety of that is always stimulating to me. And...

Aníbal: It's a good advice for our dear fellows. Variety.

Art: Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. And, you know, I entered the field having an idea of specializing with kids so that drew me from the beginning and that grew into family therapy and grew into couples work and, of course, always interested in doing adult individual work as well. So, the question was sort of like “How do you handle that burden?” But it's the opposite, the opposite has happened for me. You know, it's been a joy. And, you know, having that child energy in the office can be crazy, but it can be also very, very enlivening.

Tisha: Can you share with us a little bit about your journey, what brought you into the field to begin with? What set you up to be a therapist?

Art: Sure. When I was in college, I started with harder science, you know, studying biology and chemistry. I have an older brother who was in med school at that time. He became a pediatrician. So, we both had that kid's interest for some reason that we talk about, But I don't know that we understand fully and a little bit of a story, so, I started taking classes and I was doing ok. Not great. B's, some A's, maybe a C here and there. But it didn't grab me. Not only didn't it grab me, I was getting stomach aches. And I was in my early twenties, I guess, or beginning...So, I called my parents and I said, I'm getting stomach aches, maybe there's something in that science building that's toxic. And they said, well, get yourself checked out and go to a doctor, which I did. And the exam was fine. Doctor said it was fine and then kept taking the classes. And then the summer after my second year of college, I took a required psychology class, never even thought of psychology. And it really was pretty cool. It was like really interesting. It was focused more on syndromes and what they used to call abnormal psychology. 

Aníbal: Yeah. 

Art: And it was in the same building as the other sciences, and my stomach aches went away.

Aníbal: Wow.

Art: So, I started to be more and more curious about myself, plus taking the classes. And I found myself reading...I was taking subway, I was living, and I was in New York and reading the textbook on the subway, which sounds weird, but it was really grabbing me, and they were very cool. So, I switched majors. So, starting in my third year, let go of the sciences and basically took every class in psychology as new major.

Tisha: Your parts were communicating with you somatically so clearly.

Art: I would say, now that I kind of understand a lot of that stuff, but back then, hardly a clue. No clue.

Aníbal: What part was that, Arthur?

Art: What part was that that I was getting the stomach answer?

Aníbal: Yes, yes. That part that guided you.

Art: Smart part, smart part. If it was not for you, you know, this is...You know, you have the brain that [inaudible] with these things, but it's not meaningful. I have to say, what I started with psychology, and of course, undergraduate is very different than graduate, which is very different than when you really start to learn in the field, but it really fit. I feel so fortunate for that turn of events that led me to clinical psychology and then specializing with kids, as I said before, families and so on.

Aníbal: Since the beginning? Since the beginning.

Art: Pretty much, yeah. Yeah. My internships were with kids and then that expanded to doing work with families.

Aníbal: But at that time, you were trained in a family systems therapy, not necessarily, or a CBT or was that...?

Art: Well, in graduate school, that was mid, early 70s was...

Aníbal: Early 70's. So, yeah.

Art: So...

Art: Psychodynamic also?

Art: The program that I was in was psychodynamic and behavioral.

Aníbal: Ok.

Art: So, you took a sampling in both. There was no course in family therapy. There were maybe one or two classes that were child oriented-child focused. So, what I was learning was being out in the field, you know, on externships they call them at the time or internships and having supervisors who encouraged me and some of whom thought my thinking was strange to beginning to think more systemically even before I took trainings and so forth in family work. But they encouraged me. They said, you're thinking a little differently than we all.

Aníbal: They were open.

Art: Right. So that started that part of that journey with family therapy.

Aníbal: Yeah. So, you were a therapist for a while as a family therapist before you discovered IFS.

Art: Well, yeah. So, just to say a little bit more. So, at the same time that I was seeing kids and families, I also...And this was around graduate school, too. I also noticed starting to get a little insightful, perhaps, that I like to see the big picture. So, I felt, and I said to a couple of professors, and I said more to my peers who were in class with me, that I don't think there are all these models of what is the essence of psychotherapy or the essence of healing. I think there's one thing, because I think that if you watch a successful session of a therapist who may describe his or her, be a psychodynamic person or CBT and it goes well, I would say I think it's all the same thing. And it wasn't enormously popular thought. It wasn't that they were rejecting that thought. But they would say “Ok, now we have to go to a psychodynamic class.” And professors not at all responsive, not negatively, but not...It didn't quite get that, but I kept that in mind and probably be a bit oppositional myself, I kept that thought and began, I would say, a journey of finding out what that essence is. What is it that really heals people, that separate from the demarcation of the different models? And that's what I've been doing. So, family therapy, in addition to making sense in treating kids, also provided an impetus for that odd thought that there's one essence of healing. There is a central trail for that.

Aníbal: Yes. Art, you open your book Transforming Troubled Children with this chapter that you, exactly, you call it the essence of emotional healing.

Art: Right.

Aníbal: And it's about this essence that you already connected at the time?

Art: That's right. That's right.

Aníbal: Is that same essence. The essence of emotional healing. What is it that essence? I believe you also call it the common factor in a way. It's a common factor for every model. Every model has somehow this essence for healing? That's what you are saying?

Art: That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. So then, in searching for a meta-model, I went through many years of going to study with a lot of gurus. So, I trained a bit with Sal Minuchin, learned a little bit of Murray Bowen...

Aníbal: Big names.

Art: Right. And then was supervised by Jay Haley. I went to visit Milton Erickson in Arizona.

Aníbal: Wow.

Art: I studied NLP when it was just...Are you Familiar with neurolinguistic programming?

Aníbal: Absolutely, yes.

Art: So, I was looking and actually the NLP, Bandler and Grinder wrote this really amazing book that you're probably familiar with Structure of Magic.

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: And that resonated with this they're trying to figure out what the essence of healing is.

Aníbal: Exactly.

Art: So that very much connected with me. And then I met Dick at the time.

Aníbal: It was in the 90s?

Art: Actually, late 80s.

Aníbal: Late 80s, ok very early.

Art: Yeah, yeah. At the Networker conferences.

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: And went to his workshops, Dick was writing articles in the Networker Journal at that time and said "Here's a guy who gets it."

Art: So, I met him, introduced myself to him. We went to lunch and we established a bit of a friendship...

Aníbal: Wonderful.

Art: And a few of us were in a peer group and in that peer group, Steve Krantz, who you might know was one of the lead trainers now, and Jenny Hines and Steve said "Why don't we call Dick and see if we can get supervision on the phone? And we did that for many years, like once or twice a month. We felt so fortunate about that.

Aníbal: Wow.

Art: But I guess one of the pieces that happened was that what I was finding and experimenting with and thinking and doing, Dick put together.

Aníbal: Wow.

Art: You know, I don't know if Dick would say it, but he put forth what I would say is a meta-model of healing. I don't think he described...

Aníbal: Yeah, I never heard him about that also, but you are the only one that I heard to call the IFS Model a meta-model. Could you deepen a little bit about...I think I understand you well, why you call it a meta-model? But could you help us more about why you call it?

Art: Yeah, I would say mostly at the center of what I think is that it's a nonpathologizing...

Aníbal: It is

Art: Model...

Aníbal: Yes, refreshing, so refreshing

Art: At its core, it's that. And from there, it spins off into, as we know, the exploration of parts that, you know, our field, unfortunately, historically pathologize, those were all DSM categories, like if a person is OCD or a person has an addiction or whatever we might describe.

Aníbal: It's really a bad start trying to treat someone. It's a bad start, isn't it? Calling people those names?

Art: Yes.

Aníbal: Strange.

Art: Absolutely. Right. Right.

Tisha: Bring up a lot of shame.

Aníbal: Yeah.

Art: Absolutely. Right. Right. And that's what we're trying to heal, right?

Tisha: Right.

Aníbal: Exactly.

Art: Yeah, yeah. So, it's a model that spins back to, you know, the medical model basically...

Aníbal: The medical model, yes.

Art: Spin back to pathologizing people. Dick took a different direction. And I would say out of, you know, I met all these gurus, Dick, who's the same age, I would say he is probably the most courageous of all the people that I worked with. Certainly, the people, the clients who he worked with, you know, early in his career and later on as well...

Aníbal: Why do you say the most courageous?

Art: I think, in this tenacity of belief that people are good.

Aníbal: Yeah.

Art: And he's not going to get scared about their symptoms. He treated so many dissociative disorder people, severe eating disorder, people, that type of thing, and just went forward in a very courageous way. So, I would say, as I was going on my own journey of trying to figure out what this essence is, I met Dick and Dick brought courage and clarity to that search. And it seemed to me, you know, and I describe myself as oppositional, so the way that played out was that I would learn all these models and study Minuchin's work and Haley's work, everybody, really. And I would say, yes, but this doesn't feel exactly right. Sometimes the delivery system was edgy when I got to know Haley and Minuchin, they were edgy with clients sometimes. And as Tisha said, that was shaming in and of itself.

Aníbal: Ok.

Art: So, Dick was...

Aníbal: Different.

Art: So, I became kind of a true believer and that was unusual for me.

Aníbal: Wow, what a journey.

Art: Yeah.

Aníbal: You came up into the IFS models in such a close journey with Dick I'm seeing.

Art: Yeah.

Aníbal: It was quite close. You were close for years.

Tisha: I'm curious about that early on the phone supervision. Was that experiential? Was it learning the intricacies of the model? Was it case consults?

Art: It's kind of the way the trainings go. You know, a lot of people would show up "I want to learn this model."

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: And then there were six weekends of going inside, right. And you learn the model, but really the process of learning it is...

Aníbal: Going inside.

Art: The experiential journey. So that's exactly what it was on the phone.

Aníbal: At the time it was already like that.

Art: Yeah.

Tisha: So, you found yourself working on your own parts in your own system, being self-reflective and finding out about you as a therapist?

Art: Right, right. Yeah.

Aníbal: Again, Art, why do you call this model a meta-model?

Art: Because I think it has all of the elements that are central to healing. So, first and foremost is the nonpathologizing.

Aníbal: It is.

Art: And looks at what a person brings in as having parts. Maybe in the old days we used to call them defenses, but that's also perhaps shaming to the parts themselves. But in the IFS model, we call them protective parts, which is a whole different way to experience that they are working for us.

Aníbal: You somehow say in your book, you call it an integrative meta-model once it combines wisdom from psychodynamic, structural Bowenian and strategic sensorimotor and solution focus models.

Art: Right.

Aníbal: For instance. And more even more, eventually.

Art: Right. So, it's putting all of that together, which I think IFS, in a very clear and unencumbered way, does. It has systems thinking in it, you know, it deals with the paradox of how people get ill in recognizing that in our striving for self-protection, we have these parts that backfire if they're over employed.

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: And have us feeling less capable and less healthy.

Aníbal: Exactly. You wrote with Schwartz, with Dick Schwartz in 2007, this article on the Journal of Psychotherapy Integration called The Functional Hypothesis, a family system's contribution toward an understanding of the healing process of the common factors. What is this functional hypothesis?

Art: The functional hypothesis, you know, if we're looking for the essence of what heals, it's when the therapist can help the client see that what they're dealing with is be able to adapt and survive in various contexts. And that was actually, I would say, a revolution of family therapy.

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: Family therapy, really, as a field began in the 50s and 60s and it flipped around the idea that the things, the emotional struggles that people had are not illnesses.

Aníbal: The symptoms.

Art: Right.

Aníbal: They have a role.

Art: Right. Gregory Bateson, who is considered like the grandfather of the field, formed a study group in Palo Alto, California, and studied families of schizophrenic patients and came up with this idea that delusions or hallucinations make sense when you put them in context.

Aníbal: Yes.

Art: And that was a revolutionary idea. And to this day, people don't absorb that. There are many therapists and many people in the medical field who still do not absorb that.

Aníbal: They don't.

Art: So, I saw that Bateson idea - and by the way, Jay Haley was in that group and very wonderful people like Paul Watzlawick...

Aníbal: Yeah, wonderful times, wonderful times, in the 70s and the 80s. Lucky you. Lucky you Arthur.

Art: Yeah, I do. You know, it's interesting. I feel that way. I feel that way. Very lucky.

Aníbal: And fortunate for meeting them also.

Art: Right. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Tisha: And then to have landed on a model that feels really true for you.

Art: Yes, absolutely.

Tisha: What was it like to shift into IFS being kind of your primary working model?

Art: That's an interesting question. I think, you know, it really wasn't anything of a challenge. In fact, it was just such a, you know, like a breathing easy...

Aníbal: Just fits you. Fits you.

Art: Fits what I was journeying to find. And now I think that IFS, EFT, ACT, Siegel's work, they're all kind of in the same genre, even though, you know, they have specifics or sabbatical work, you know, Pat Ogden, they're all kind of in this essence place. So, it's a very happy time for a person like me.

Tisha: Right. So, you've seen the evolution [inaudible 00:29:49] being used in other ways and adapted.

Aníbal: And what is that essence, Art? How would you name it? How would you call it?

Art: The essence is having the person experience that they're good. I know it sounds maybe simplistic, but it's that they're experiencing that they have, as you well know, these protectors and they're protecting against trauma that we all carry from mild to severe and that we were smart enough to develop these protectors so that we can survive in key context, mainly our families, but that, you know, the protective parts, as we start to say before, overwork and then constrain that goodness, which, in the eye of this model, is called Self. So, the idea is to unburden the residue of that trauma by asking the parts to step back, bringing Self in and having Self with the guidance of a therapist that delivers it well, you know, to release the burdens. So that's IFS meta-model. I think that's where the healing is.

Tisha: Can you talk a little bit about your experience with Self, either as a clinician or personally?

Art: Sure. Let me reflect on that for a moment. You know, Self is what I need to bring to myself first and foremost and then bring to my clients. And no matter what the drama of the session might be, I know that I have to get back to...I start my day with that, which I usually do with some meditation and breathing and just trying to keep my promise as to what got off track yesterday or this morning, early or whatever, to bring Self-energy to it or recognize what's in the way of that. And bring that forward in the hour to hour work that I do. Currently, my practice, because I just turned 70 last year, my practice is basically working with therapists, so I feel quite fortunate in that too. So, I have small groups and I have and, you know, one on one or couples who are therapists. And so, it's kind of like a mini IFS training day, where I have to get into Self, bring it out and you know, not infrequently get a question from people on either training or working with as a therapist. They'll say, well "Art, are you always in Self?" And I say "Yes, I'm always in Self, except when I'm not."

Aníbal: Absolutely, totally agree with you.

Art: But really, the more important question is, of course, not always, it's not a static kind of thing, but the more important thing is getting back to it, you know, having little signals inside and heading to it.

Aníbal: Art, you came from, you trained in so many models, you have a so reach and long journey in our field. In your clinical work do you combine IFS with any specific modality nowadays or you just stay mainly IFS focused?

Art: You know, I would say all the work is IFS informed. So, at the risk of being repetitious, the meta-model is what IFS offers and the specifics, you know, could range from taking a person at side to doing body exercises, doing some meditation in the session with the client. So, it's, you know, psychoanalytic ideas are always there. I haven't rejected that. CBT ideas about how we think about our thinking are useful. So, I would say, you know, it's kind of like screens on the computer when I'm very centered and I'm clear minded, I'll be able to click on the screen that fits for that moment with the meta-model as the umbrella of it all.

Aníbal: Interesting. Art, in a time of screens you were there to create a board game. How is it doing your game?

Art: Good. Yes. The nicest thing, I have to say, the two of you are such lovely individuals. I get that, I met Anibal before meeting you Tisha, and I'm saying this because you're doing the IFS talks, which is great, you should at some point in some form, and this may be part of what it is, right or do something that puts out what you figured out into the world, because it's a wonderful experience. It's great internally and it's also so nice to get an email from Lisbon, of all places, you know, saying that few of us read your book and we're delighted with it. Will you talk with us? And it's just a wonderful, generative, expansive way of coming out...

Aníbal: And some buy the game.

Art: And some buy the game, right, right, right. So, yeah, it's doing well. And that's why I started to say that, because I get periodic emails about it and that it was helpful. If I go to IFS conference, people see the name tag and they say "Oh, I love the game", it's just very nice that you, especially in my old age, paint on a larger on a larger canvas. It's a very wonderful...

Tisha: So people are using this game, it sounds like it, in practice with children to really solidify the model and, you know, it seems like there is reference to Self and reference to parts, that it's a great way to...I'd love to play it. I haven't. I just watched the demo.

Art: The one that's on the...

Tisha: Yeah, that's great. Somebody did a good job with your graphics.

Art: Yes. Yes.

Tisha: But yeah, it's such a great concept. Thank you for that contribution.

Art: My pleasure. Thank you for that comment. Over the years used various board games and always had in mind, you know, to kind of put together all the hundreds or thousands of questions that may have been helpful into something that therapists could use. Seems to work.

Tisha: Good tool for the office.

Art: They're getting into schools, which I'm delighted about, like school psychologists are using it.

Aníbal: Wow, wonderful. Art you have been working with hundreds of children and their families, I believe, over your long career. Are you sharing all this experience and knowledge, coaching other therapists now on this specific work with parents and families and children? Or they do consult you only for adults?

Art: No, no.

Aníbal: It's for children and...

Art: Many about kids and families. And that's one of the pieces about the book that people said "Can I have a phone, a supervision or come in to talk about ideas that you're writing about and might apply to the cases that we have." So, yeah.

Aníbal: Wonderful

Tisha: Do you have a sense of where you'd like to see the model itself go in the future? Any hopes and dreams?

Art: My own pet ideas about, you know, is there an essence of healing to the process of healing would be a nice development, talk about perhaps at IFS conferences, you know, bringing in key people who promote other models. So, I'd certainly like to see that. I think there are so many exciting things that are happening that I hear about. But that's the first thing that comes to mind that can we talk about. I think it's a little tricky, because everybody has their little territory. You know, I think that it's just human nature, I guess.

Aníbal: It is.

Art: You know, that we have these separate, restated models. But I'd love to see more of a discussion about what the commonalities are among all of these very wonderful healing models. I had some talks, you know, just to reflect on, Anibal, what you said at the beginning. You know, family therapy is not being taught in graduate schools in the states too much. I mean, being taught a little bit, but not emphasizing. People are not really offering a lot of supervision on it. I think the realities of doing of family therapy, which probably mean that you have to work after school hours as a therapist, that evening hours to have both parents participate is not always so appealing to people.

Aníbal: Too engaging.

Art: But it saddens me that, you know, certainly the Ph.D. programs on the East Coast, CBT has been pretty much the center piece model. And these other things, which I consider, as I've been saying, you know, more of the metal-model of what exactly happens, you really have to learn after school. You know, they're not really, unless you're fortunate to get maybe usually an adjunct person teaching you, you're not really getting the update on all the exciting things that are going on in the field.

Aníbal: Yes, you are right, and the world needs it so much.

Tisha: Yeah, this is really true. Yeah. I wonder when these models will make it into graduate program.

Art: I mean the only program that I know that's been doing it for, you know, since the late 90s is Ralph Cohen's program in Connecticut, it's an MFT training program. And students there are amazing, you know, I've taught for so many years, you know, very brilliant PhD students in clinical psychology when I got to be friends with Ralph and actually my initial training was in Connecticut in IFS, formal training beyond the individual work with Dick. These students were amazing at that age, at that stage at age. That was really encouraging.

Tisha: I was introduced to IFS in my clinical internship and I remember bringing it to my graduate class consult group and the professor actually scoffed at it. It was a great professor, but it was it was really dismissed, which, you know, looking down...

Art: I'm sorry that you had that experience.

Tisha: Well, it was interesting. It didn't change anything for me.

Aníbal: And Art, regarding the future for you as an IFS practitioner, you did it all. I understood you are in transition from clinical work to a discussion and coaching other therapies right now, but you have done it so much. What are your dreams now and ambitions at this time for you?

Art: Hmm. Thank you for asking that. So, this past year, I shifted, as I said, to, you know, fortunate enough to have a sector of my practice that are therapists seeking training and consultation and as the two of you know, leads into IFS work a lot, so it's all of that and I reduced my hours and that's been nice. My wife is retired, she was a dentist and she had retired a couple of years ago. And I was watching her, and she did like really beautifully. So, I didn't know that would go that smoothly for me and I knew that I wanted to stop fully. So, this is the first year, really the first 10 months that I've cut the hours. And it's been very healthy at this stage.

Aníbal: You are enjoying it.

Art: So that in itself has been good and I'm writing a book with the same title of that first chapter, The Essence of Healing, hoping that it might be able to reach a larger audience, not just about children and families, but what is that essence?

Aníbal: That common factor.

Art: Right. Right. And I've had these consultation groups for about ten years. Two different groups. I thought they were going to be one-year thing and the groups fell in love with each other, which is always great. So, we've continued of all these years. So, each month, once a month in each group, we have a topic with some readings. So, the book, I hope, will be kind of like those 10 years’ work of all those topics that we grappled with.

Aníbal: Good.

Art: I love to write, so it's a nice thing.

Aníbal: Yes, I see that you keep having fun. And I also understood that you plan to come to Lisbon. Did I understand well?

Art: Yes. We don't have a date, but we do. Actually, we both are very oh...We'd love to see beautiful places, but we're both big fans of Fado music.

Aníbal: Oh, wow. So come to Lisbon, please let me know.

Art: Tap your knowledge about where to see genuine...

Aníbal: Fado

Tisha: Yes, I think he might he might know, but he is very secretive about it.

Art: Oh really?

Aníbal: We'll keep in touch so... So, Art, I'll be waiting for your call for Lisbon. I'll be there waiting.

Art: Oh, thank you.

Aníbal: Yes. I hope we can keep in touch and you will let me know when you plan to come to Lisbon.

Art: I will do that.

Aníbal: Please. And thank you so much for having us. It was a joy to be here with you and Tisha and I hope we can keep meeting and sharing this model, our work and our lives. Maybe next year we can repeat this talk together. Who knows? And how can listeners find you or find out more about your work? I believe you have a website, right?

Art: I have a website artmonesphd, that's easy enough.

Aníbal: Yes, that's easy to get.

Tisha: Thank you so much. Thanks for taking the time and talking to us.

Art: I want to thank you Tisha and thank you Aníbal for a wonderful experience and thanks for having this whole concept of getting inside the people, through the model. I think it's great. I think it's great.

Aníbal: Thanks so much. Take care. It was fun.

 

Recorded 21st November 2019
Transcript Edition: Carolina Abreu