The Therapeutic Relationship in IFS with Einat Bronstein

Today on IFS talks we're speaking with Einat Bronstein. With a law degree from Tel Aviv university in Israel and a Masters of Clinical Social Work from Washington university in St. Louis, Einat studied with Dick Schwartz and practices IFS from its earliest years in Chicago. She graduated from levels one, two, and three IFS trainings. And now she's currently an international lead trainer, an IFS supervisor, and a certified IFS therapist with over 25 years of clinical experience in private practice. Einat is the co-founder and co-director of the Israeli Institute of IFS. She has also taught couples therapy for eight years at Tel Aviv university. She is married and has four children.

Tisha Shull: Einat, thank you so much for joining us today on IFS talks and being here with us.

Einat Bronstein: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Aníbal Henriques: Thanks much, Einat, for willing to sit with us. What parts come up today hearing this bio of yours?

Einat: Some parts are a bit surprised saying “Oh, is this what I want to say about myself, kind of is this the way I want to introduce myself to the world?” But I guess to the world of IFS this is relevant. So yes, but you know, at any given moment, different parts can give very different bios about me.

Aníbal: Einat, could you please tell us a bit about your journey into the mental health profession? Was there something in your personal life that was determinant for you becoming a psychotherapist?

Einat: Yeah. You know, these are things you always know in retrospect, but you know, like most Israelis, I served two years in the Israeli army, right after high school, then you come out of the army and your life begins. You need to launch yourself into your own path. And I think my pleasing parts chose for me what my father chose for me just to go to law school, be a good successful lawyer. I think I really always wanted to work with people. And I thought “well, this would be working with people, this will be helping people, and this would be pleasing my father,” which at the time was really important for my parts. I finished law school, but I was unhappy, you know, from the get-go and realized this was not really my path. Didn't know what exactly was my path. During my years of law school, being the overachiever that I am, I managed to get married and get divorced within two years, very quick marriage. But that bit in my life really brought me to the world of therapy because...I was very young, but I already had the, wherewithal to say to myself “Okay I rushed into the marriage, let's not rush into divorce. Let's work on it.” So, we were in couples’ therapy, individual therapy, group therapy, any kind of therapy to save the marriage, which when it was clear that it has to end, ended. But for me, that was an encounter with this world, the world of therapy. It was just mind-boggling. And it was kind of clear to me that I would want to be involved with that. And several years later I met the man who's still my husband after 33 years. And he's an American, I'm an Israeli. I lived in Israel at the time. I moved from Israel to America to get married and stayed there for, as I said, for many years. And that's when I decided that I've already made a big change in my life, I may as well change everything and change careers. This is how I ended up being a therapist. The decision to give up being a lawyer...I did finish law school. I could be, but that decision of, you know, giving up that career track and becoming a therapist was one that I have not had a second of regret in my life. This was the best decision. So, I am totally where I need to be. And I'm so grateful for that.

Aníbal: Beautiful. And when did you get across with IFS?

Einat: Yeah, I was actually very lucky, I think, to meet IFS early on in my, early on in my life and early on in my career. I just finished my masters and I was really looking for a model that could be my home. I think that, you know, in a master's program, you get introduced to multiple theories and multiple programs, you know, to multiple modalities, mostly those who are fashionable and trendy at the time that you were in school. When I was in school, it was family therapy. It was CBT, you know, a few other things, you know, of course psychodynamic was still there, but these were the main ones. And none of it really felt quite right. And I knew that I wanted to continue studying and becoming, you know, deeply involved with something, but I didn't know what. I thought family therapy, it was close, but not enough. And I was in Chicago visiting my very beloved sister-in-law who lives there. And I lived in St. Louis, Missouri at the time. So still in the Midwest and kind of in proximity to Chicago. And she said, you know, there's this little conference, little seminar day, long something nearby. Let's go listen. And we were both just fresh out of school and just wanting to take in everything we could. And we went in there and it was Dick. Dick was speaking. He was kind of the main speaker. And then there were little workshops. I think it was kind of a very early incarnation of, you know, what ended up being, I think, the Annual Conference, but very different. I think it was a day or two day, a bunch of little workshops and Dick, that was it.

Aníbal: And that was the nineties?

Einat: That was in early nineties. Yes. I think it was maybe 93, 92, 93, very early. And they were just starting. Dick was just starting. It was just in Chicago with really handful of people following. And I remember I just walked in and we sat down and I listened to him. And Dick was much more shy at the time and not so used to public speaking. And yet what he said was just like, I just, I was smitten. I was smitten and I fell in love and I felt like this is my home. This just absolutely echoed with every fiber of my being. And it was very, a very quick falling in love, which hasn't changed in all these years. So, yeah, so it's close to 30 years now. And ever since from that moment on, I was a follower and I try to get as much as I could. I kept flying from St. Louis to Chicago. I took the second level one to ever be offered. You know, these were the days again, that level one was two years long. We came once a month together or three years with three days before, and three days retreat at the end of the beginning of the end. And two years in the middle. Dick was teaching it personally. He had several PA’s at the time. Susan McConnell was one of them, was my personal PA, so, I remember it so vividly. And it was absolutely an incredible experience and it totally changed my life, first of all as a person, you know, when people ask me, I don't say how many years I work with IFS, I say how many years I live with IFS because I live with it. It's not something I do in the office and then close the door and go home. So, I've been living with IFS since the very early nineties, and it totally shaped me as a therapist and as a mother and as a wife and as a human being. And over the years, I have learned other things. I know how to do other things, not just IFS. I've explored, I've been trained and got supervision on other models and theories and yet IFS is absolutely the spine of my work. It's the trunk of what I do. And occasionally there would be other branches that can enhance what I do enrich it and form it, but it really is the spine and the core of what I do and how to be in the world.

Tisha: Do you remember what it was that resonated so strongly with you when you first went to that initial conference?

Einat: It just felt like he was describing so accurately my internal experience. Like all of a sudden there were words and images to capture that which was my internal experience. And as he was describing it, this voice in me was like “yeah, that's exactly it, exactly. That explains so much.” And things become clear right away just by naming them this way and mapping them out this way. It just felt so true and so accurate. And I think I right away understood the power of it. I mean, again, to the extent that you can right away, I mean, you need to have years of fully understanding it, I think, but there was a very intuitive and an immediate sense of how deep this can go and how accurate it is and how loving it is. It was very important to me. You know, in school, one of the main things was, as I said, family therapy and Jay Haley and Cloe Madanes, and, you know, kind of this group that was really very strong then. And I remember feeling that these were very talented people, so much of what they were doing, felt manipulative, disrespectful, and all these, you know, kind of paradoxical interventions, build shaming and belittling. And all of a sudden, I got that what Dick was describing was a very loving, respectful and safe way to conceptualize and work with people. That was really important to me, felt like I can really stand behind it without feeling conflicted and without questioning my integrity in doing certain things, because that just felt very whole, very wholesome as well.

Aníbal: We can see that for you there is a before and after IFS, that it was a steppingstone for you. And then you became a lead trainer. How long did it take you to become a lead trainer?

Einat: Actually very long because it was not traditional track, which I don't know if anyone has a traditional track on this, but...So I was an IFS trainer, as I said, since the early...I'm sorry, an IFS therapist since the very early nineties, following any seminar and any workshop in anything, and obviously all the levels. And in 2007, I managed to convince finally, after 20 years of campaigning, my husband and my children to move to Israel. For me it was going back home, for them it was really immigrating because they're all Americans and it was a very big step to come back to Israel. And part of my dream was to bring IFS to Israel. So, by that time, you know, when I arrived at Israel, 2007, I was already, you know, many years into the IFS scene, into IFS work and learning and I teamed up with Ossi Arbel. Was my IFS partner and a very close, and we received the authorization from CSL at the time Center for Self-leadership to start offering trainings in Israel. So, we brought our joint experiences, talents, skills and we started to teach. So, we're the only ones able to teach in Hebrew in Israel. Had a lot of experience, Osnat had more experience in academics, I had more clinical experience with IFS, many years of that. And together, I think we've created a very good team and started to train people in Israel. And we did this as in a co-lead structure for many years. And after about 10 years of doing that and multiple, multiple trainings we had about one or two trainings, you know, L1 trainings, level one trainings, every year, we had a tremendous amount of experience. We did this mentee training in the US as we each led, you know, solo led a training and were granted our title lead solo trainer. And since then, we've actually been, you know, each of us have been traveling all over the world doing, you know, level one and level two trainings, as well as in Israel still.

Aníbal: Well done.

Tisha: You ended up being one of the pioneers of the online trainings quite by accident. I've, heard. And so now are you only online currently and how is that going for you?

Einat: Yeah, so all the trainings are online when the COVID-19 started it caught us here in Israel in the middle of a level one. So that level one halfway had to switch to become online. Transition went pretty, pretty well. We had a level three with Dick that was planned. He was going to come here to Israel in June, and that obviously reformatted itself to being online. And

I have multiple trainings that are coming up starting now in July, later in July with England, and then in August with Australia and September with Moscow. So, they're all going to be online and it's been challenging. It's been successful in many ways. Definitely our trainings could be offered online with great results, but it's still not the same. It does not give us that direct human connection when all the senses participate, you have a full picture of the person in a room together, it's still really missing. So, talking about therapeutic relationship, you know, relationship that you can form online might be a bit different than the relationship when you are actually in person. A lot of people... I don't know how different yet, I think we're all learning what would be the long-term impact of this.

Aníbal: So, Einat, when I asked you about the topic of your preference for this talk, you chose the therapeutic relationship. Do we need the relationship or even a good therapist to do IFS?

Einat: You know, part of what, when I pause to think, I think that this is a topic, maybe every topic, but this is a topic that is, first of all, heavy with terminology that I'm not even sure that we all think the same. What is relationship? What is therapy? What is therapeutic? So even to talk about it, I think like, wait, wait, you know, we need to define those things to even know that we're talking about the same thing. So, what is a good therapist? Or no. We could find that, you know, is there one definition for an IFS therapist versus another therapist? These are all really, very thought-provoking pieces for me. I want to say that part of what I like to do when I teach, or when I talk about something is really to take advantage of our brain's tendency to search for answers. Basically, if you present a question, our brain immediately runs to search for the answer. We can’t control it. Now we may come back with no answer. We may come back with a wrong or misguided answer, but we're going to be searching for it. And for me, it's a great way to offer people trailheads, just to ask questions and have people go “Hmm, let me ponder that for a minute. I don't know the answer to that. Let me think.” I love doing that. I think that's the best way for us to learn as instead of really feeding answers, just to have people think. So, I want to really maybe offer these questions: What is therapeutic for people? What could be therapeutic and what is relationship here in this context? And I have all kinds of thoughts about that, of course, but I love to invite people to just ponder that.

Aníbal: Einat, we all know IFS is such an intense relational therapy and method, right? So, we see this intense relational activity inwards and outwards. So, where does this idea that the therapeutic relationship isn’t so important came from? This perception may be mistaken. Because Dick says IFS can honor Carl Rogers, attachment and transference theories, and also be a nurturing therapy as well. So, he’s stressing out the relationship between the therapist and the client. So, where does this idea come from that the relationship is not so important for IFS.

Einat: I don't know where this comes from. I strongly disagree with that. And actually, I get calls sometimes from people here in Israel. Hey, you know, I got the book, you know, this book, that book about IFS and some, and I'm listening to some recordings and I’m learning things. Maybe I can just teach myself IFS and I can solve my problems. And do I really need to go to therapy for that, you know, if I can just check and work with my parts? And I think we can do different things by ourselves, but we absolutely, I feel, we have to have relationship. You know, it's confusing maybe with IFS, because really when you say, listen, everyone has a Self and Self is the inner leader of the system. And when you can be more Self-lead and have more Self-energy, that's what you need to heal your wounds, you know, to heal your exiles. And once the exiles can get healed, you have, you know, more harmony in the system, more Self-leadership, parts, you know, protectors can relax. So, it seems like it's sort of like a closed system where you can just yourself, we'll just do it for your parts and you don't need anything else, but it just doesn't work that way. You know, even for, I think people who live and work with IFS for many years, maybe I'll put myself in that group too. I need other people to hold space for me many times, to help point out things that I might still not be able to see because parts are clouding it and keeping it in my blind field. We need a certain holding that is loving that is compassionate, that is nonjudgmental, that is patient. We sometimes need the perspective that someone else's Self has while we're not fully in Self, just to help us move along that continuing or continuum of more Self differentiation and unblending. We need to co-regulate before we can self-regulate many times, and that's how we start off in life. So why would that be different?

Aníbal: So, for you, Einat, the technique is not everything. I mean, it's somehow easy to memorize and say the eight C's or the five P’s, but so difficult to embody them, right? With many challenging clients or even family members like our spouses. It's so difficult to, as you say, self-regulate. So, why is this so difficult? Why is that the technique is not enough? Knowing it's not enough.

Einat: I think that's one of the best things about IFS, that it does acknowledge that awareness is not enough, knowing is not enough, psychoeducation is not enough. Because I think there is a relationship. And actually, in the therapy room, there are multiple relationships that operate, that exist at any given time. There is the relationship between me, the therapist and my clients, you know, me, the Self of me and my client’s Self. There's a relationship between my Self and my client's parts. There's a relationship between my Self and my parts. They're all there as well. There's the relationship between, you know, my client's Self and my parts, my client parts and my parts. I mean, there's just, it's a web. We are connected to each other in a very intricate web. It's not just in a therapy room. We are connected to everyone around us, in this web. And when it happens to someone that is connected to us in this web, we feel it, depending on how close we are and how many little wires connect us, what we feel, those, you know, those rattles, you know, those shakes and moves in the web. So here I am in the room and I'm connected to another person in this very intricate web and we are impacting each other. I think one of the things to consider that happens in therapy is therapy actually replaces something that is very profound in our experience, which we all experience, you know, when we just start our life, and that happens to us with our parents. And what happens to us is experiencing three things, which is exclusivity, closeness and dependence. Think of a child and the parents, there is exclusivity because there's just the parents. You know, we don't have other parents, even people who have stepparents or, you know, adopting parents, there is the parent that is raising us one or two, but this is it. You know, it's a finite personality. There's closeness as being a child with your parents. There's closeness that just, you live in a house with them. And there's dependence, as children we depend on the adults in our lives. And these aren't easy experiences, human experiences, many parts come from these experiences. So, think of therapy. That's what happens. Client comes and they experienced the exclusivity. They have one therapist and what the therapist does or doesn't do. And the way the therapist shows up, it's very, very important because there is exclusivity this way and there's closeness. They bare their soul. We sit there in a small room and people share, you know, everything intimate and important and painful in their lives. And there's dependence. They really do depend on us showing up and us showing up in a certain way and us not harming them, not taking advantage of their vulnerability. So, these three elements of exclusivity, closeness and dependence are the foundation of therapeutic relationship, which is why it's so hard for many parts to allow that. People come to therapy and we think that by coming to therapy, they say, I am open for therapy, but many parts aren't because it's not easy to relive this exclusivity, closeness and dependence. It's very powerful. And what's important for me to point out is the therapist experiences the same thing. The therapist is not anew, we sit in the room with our clients. We are very vulnerable. We are vulnerable to what they are expressing to us, what they're saying to us, their exclusivity, this unique client is one and only what this client experiences and what this client is going to save to the world afterwards and how this client is experiencing me is very exclusive. And there is closeness. They see me there, they see me day in and day out, you know, and sometimes this way, and sometimes on that way, and there is dependence because therapists also depend on the client to show up, to come, to be willing to listen, to be willing to be touched, to be moved, to be healed. So, we are connected in a very interdependent way with our clients.

Aníbal: And many times, we heal with them, right?

Einat: We must show up in a way that would allow us...well, must, I don't want to say this, it sounds like a very strong way, but I think that showing up in a human way and in an open way allows us to heal too and to grow. I mean, it's not always just about healing, but it's about growing because if I am with the client and I notice parts of me that got triggered, I can work with these parts and I can grow from that and I can own them.

Aníbal: Yeah.

Tisha: Speaking of that, how does the IFS model differ from other models in regard to the therapeutic relationship?

Einat: there is a difference, but I don't want to pretend that I know so much about other models that I can make, you know, this very educated intellectual comparison, but I would say that I think IFS is harder because it really puts tremendous amount of responsibility on the therapist to do their work. You can't not do your work and show up as an IFS therapist because then you'll be showing up in parts. If you don't do your inner work, you are vulnerable and fragile, which means that you need protectors to surround you so that you would not feel so vulnerable and fragile. And if you have a lot of protectors, then there must be a distance, you know, protectors create distance in one way or another, whether it's very noticeable, implicit or explicit, but protectors create distance between us and others for safety. And if you sit in a therapy room and there is a lot of distance, I think it will be...it's a different kind of energy. People will not feel as safe. They can appreciate how eloquent the therapist is and how knowledgeable the therapist is, but I think there's something in the heart to heart connection that's going to be missing when the therapist is distant. And therapists, because we're human, we end up being distant when we need to be protected. And if we don't really work with our parts and heal our wounds, and we have to be protected all the time, especially in therapy because it is so intimate, you really need to be protected. If you don't want to be vulnerable.

Aníbal: So, Einat, you were saying that we need a good relationship for IFS to work out, but also, we may need a good therapist. And what makes a good therapist for you?

Einat: These are really hard questions for me because there's a lot of value placing here. And again, you know, I have a whole, that's kind of my new favorite topic about values and beliefs in therapy and in IFS it's really big. And it's very important to the therapeutic relationship because, you know, for instance, because what makes the relationship? The relationship is the connection and the boundaries, because the boundaries also really, you know, draw the lines of the relationship. This is how far we go. this is what we can do, this is what we can't do. And boundaries are this really magical word in the world of psychotherapy, but how do we draw boundaries? How do we decide the distance between us and our clients? Boundaries come from beliefs and values that we're holding. So, when you say good therapist or not so good therapist, there's a value judgment here. And it must, for me to answer this question, I must check what beliefs do I have about a good therapist, and a not so good therapist, those are my beliefs. And do they apply to everyone? Are they always applicable? I don't know. I think, for me that would be maybe someone who really is aware of their parts and has perspective on their parts and can be, I guess, offering Self-energy in way of curiosity and compassion as much as possible to the people around them.

Aníbal: And how do we get there? These standing that you're just describing, it's mostly about experiencing the model in themselves? What about having a large clinical and life experience or both clinical experience and life experience or self-experiencing the model?

Einat: I think it's really important to experience the model on yourself, just be in the receiving end of IFS therapy, as well as you are in the giving end of it. I think life experience is always wonderful, but you know, I saw some young people that don't have much life experience and they are wonderful. They hold incredible solid Self-energy and Self presence, and they may not have as much clinical experience, but their heart is so open. They have this genuine curiosity and just in a compassion that they're wonderful, even though they may not have, you know, huge clinical experience. So, and actually life experience and clinical experience can cause other results. They can bring a lot of protected parts, you know, kind of intellectual knowing expert parts that won't necessarily lend themselves very easily to Self-energy. So, I think it just depends on the person and how they're, how they work with their system. It's not just about age and the quantity of years you have in the profession. It's really how you show up inside yourself and then outside yourself.

Aníbal: What about the technique? Does it help knowing the six F’s, the 8 C’s, the 5 P’s, the 7 steps of healing, the 11 fears of protectors? How much it helps?

Einat: It helps. It helps, but you know, it's kind of like, sometimes I say, it's kind of like learning, you know, a complicated dance. So, at first you just need to know the steps, okay. Forward, backwards sides, turn, whatever. But that's not a dance. You're just doing the steps. Once you really know what you're doing, you start dancing, then you really move and you have rhythm and you have music and your motion is beautiful, not just correct, but it's also graceful and beautiful and has an emotion and a feeling and an expression to it. So, it's important to know the protocol. It's important to know the definitions, the elements, the techniques, it's important because these are the steps. These are the bones of this language. It's kind of like speaking a language. We need to know the grammar. You need to know that the structure of the language, but if you really want to be fluent and creative in the language and use it in the most beautiful way, you really need to do more work with it and just have a lot of experience. And I think first experience is on yourself, you know, the more you do your work, less afraid you are to go the distance. I often say it's hard for therapists to take clients to places that they have not been to themselves. If you have not done much unburdening of your own trauma, you will be scared to take your clients all the way to do unburdening of their trauma. It'll just be this unknown and a darkish place that I have never gone to. So, I'm going to be afraid to go there. And I won't know much about it because I haven't. So, I think first thing is for us to do this, and then we can take our clients there as well. So yeah, there's some kind of a big responsibility that I think IFS places on the therapist to be really clean and really always aware working with yourself as you come to work with them.

Tisha: I'm curious about the therapeutic relationship and then when you're working with the client exiles, I'm just curious if exiles ever need the witness of someone other than the client's Self. If you find that, whether for other people, beyond the therapist who's working with them to know the exiles experience or the therapist in the room to be there for the exile to see as well. I'm just curious about it.

Einat: Yeah. So, I don't think there's one answer. I think for different people and different exiles, it's different. I think for some people, for some exiles, just the fact that the clients themselves in Self can see their exile and be with it and witness the story, that's the healing they need. And other exiles do need the witnessing of the therapist, that's really important. Have another person validate, to have another person hear, know, listen. I think that many times it's very important as well for some exiles, especially exiles maybe that had fears around them that they will not be believed or, you know, that they will be dismissed. So, it's really important to have another person, which is the therapist, listen and acknowledge and respect and hold. And for some exiles it's important to have even more people. And that's what happens sometimes with like great unburdenings that take place in demos, in trainings in groups. You wonder, wow, how could this person have such a big unburdening in front of so many people? But I think that sometimes that's what the exile needed. The witnessing by a group of people who really validated its experience and really solidifies that my story is believed and is real.

Aníbal: May we shift into your experience as a lead trainer? What do you enjoy the most in your trainings? And I'd like to remind all of us that we train in IFS, not only therapists, we somehow expect people to experience themselves and grow themselves and their relationships, not only on the professional level.

Einat: My biggest joy in life is being with people in ways that are meaningful. I can be with people just at a supermarket, but I'm talking about ways that are meaningful and interactive. And also, I think that I always, ever since I remember myself, I loved hearing stories. I love when people tell me stories. So, what do we do as therapists? We just sit and people tell us stories. I have parts that just can't believe it. You know, after almost 30 years of doing this, I still go to work and I'm so excited that people are going to tell me stories and I'm just, and I'm going to be there to hold their story and be with them in their story. So, it's the same thing in the trainings. I love hearing people stories, make room for that, even in, you know, personal encounters at the breaks and the evenings. I love having meaningful connections with people. I love to see how people experience what I experienced with my first encounter. That experience of being smitten by something that feels so true and so accurate and so resonating. To just be resonated, to feel resonating with something so profoundly is such a gift. And I see the light turns on in people's eyes and for different people it's different places, you know, different spots around the process of the training or the teaching or the learning. But to see that light turn on is magnificent. When people go through personal experiences with the demos or in the practice group and they come out and say, wow, I just worked with a part I didn't know existed. I just work with a part that is so difficult for me and I have a total different understanding. It’s seeing people developing relationships with their parts that I find fascinating and so empowering. You know, in IFS and definitely in the trainings there's a lot of talk about Self. Everybody wants to be in Self, but people constantly check. Am I in Self? Are you in Self? Are we in Self? Is there not enough Self? There's this big, big, you know, Self festival all the time. And you know, if we need to worry about that, we're not in Self already. These are parts. Parts who are worried. Am I in Self? Am I enough in Self? The other person is more in Self. I'm not enough. So, but for me, this is, you know, it's the love of our parts that really makes a big difference here. When we can love our parts and accept them and know them and make them welcome. And while we do that, we can welcome and accept other people's parts. When we do that, we are in Self without even planning to be, without even working at it. Just be curious about your parts, be interested and be loving you're in Self right there. So, to see how people do that in the trainings and how they get there is always just such a gift to me. And I love to see it when clients do it also in our work, just that understanding and the curiosity that comes with it is just, is a miracle.

Tisha: It sounds like you get so much out of what you do.

Einat: I do.

Tisha: I'm wondering how you envision the future of the IFS model? You now, it's taken so much traction, you're leading trainings in Moscow and England. What would you like to see?

Einat: I know that Dick wants it to change the world, really, like in small ways and in big ways and go into all the levels of human organizations, you know, schools to communities, to municipalities, to countries. So, I would, you know, obviously put my name right there next to his, you know? Yeah, let's do that. Let's change the world. I think IFS can do. It really, I'm such a believer in that, but also, I think even just this COVID-19 experience have been so humbling. We think we go a certain direction. We think we have a certain path unfolding under our feet and then the whole thing just gets totally taken away and twisted and you know, turned upside down and we are in a different place now. So, it's very hard for me to make predictions. I can only have a vision and have a hope. I am humbled in terms of, I would first hope that in my country, in Israel, we can have more Self for the individuals and for the government and just, you know, if each state can have more Self and less firefighters, I think it will already be a better world. So maybe that's where we're headed. I hope so

Aníbal: Beautiful. Well said. So, Einat, thank you so much for having us. It was a joy to be here with you and Tisha and I hope we can keep meeting and sharing this model our work and our lives. Thank you so much.

Einat: Thank you so much for having me. Appreciate it.

Tisha: Thank you. This was a wonderful conversation. It's great to get to know you.

Recorded 11th July 2020
Transcript Edition: Carolina Abreu